[SustainableTompkins] Hybrid parade: mmm, i don't think so

Thu Mar 13 06:19:53 PST 2008

i don't think i agree.  people don't change so much because they are  
forced to.  think of how many people resist imposed religion.  i  
think it's a matter of education.  not that regs won't help in  
certain areas, especially with corporations (who have no  
religion...).  at some point things have to fall to shit enough that  
people get scared.  then they get religion!  or, in this case,  
motivated enough to change.  i do think that education could happen  
by grassroots efforts but don't see enough people on board yet.   
probably won't be enough people doing grassroots education before  
some sort of crisis.

george frantz, did i see you talk at a CCE conference at cornell in  
september?  you and a few other men came and talked about land use  
regs for farmers?  anyway, i disagree with you as well.  while people  
ARE expected to do the best they can with what they've got, it's  
impractical and unfair to expect everyone to live the same way and at  
the same level of conservation.  why is this unfair?  because society  
is not built for conservation.  we're all trying to burrow our way  
through the muck into a golden area called "conservation."  these  
tunnels are not built yet and as i said before, many people don't  
even know the golden area exists.  so when people fail to reach high  
standards it is not always for lack of trying but for doing the best  
they can without good resources.  i don't mean this an an excuse for  
bad behavior, just that good behavior is often very difficult or  
impossible.

-marlo
On Mar 13, 2008, at 9:13 AM, Andy Bailey Goodell wrote:

> I agree, but as long is there is gasoline to be used for  
> transportation
> people will be burning it. Similarly with conservation: the general
> population will not take serious measures to conserve resources  
> until their
> disposable income has reached almost nothing (i.e. if they want to  
> buy a new
> TV they will need to conserve their energy use to save up that  
> money). The
> math shows that to be sustainable at this population, Americans  
> need to use
> about 1-2% of the energy they currently average. Is that something  
> you are
> ready to do? I'm down to about 10% of average, but that means I  
> still have a
> long way to go.
>
> To think that even owning a car is truly sustainable would be kidding
> ourselves. But while I try quite hard to reduce my energy use and  
> impact in
> all ways, the system around me (in all forms of infrastructure) is  
> not, and
> that makes it very hard to live a low-energy lifestyle. But as we have
> 'evolved' to want our own house with a big yard, a few parking  
> spots, and
> the ability to drive when we want, it will certainly take much time  
> and
> involve plenty of resistance to get away from that model.
>
> The best we can really expect is nibbling around the edges until we  
> are
> forced by legislation, energy prices, or a drastic change in  
> society by
> choice.
>
> Andy Goodell
> 1894 Charlotte Creek Road
> Oneonta, NY 13820
> (603) 831-0356
> http://geekguyandy.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sustainabletompkins-bounces at lists.mutualaid.org
> [mailto:sustainabletompkins-bounces at lists.mutualaid.org] On Behalf  
> Of George
> Frantz
> Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 11:02 PM
> To: Sustainable Tompkins County listserv
> Subject: Re: [SustainableTompkins] Hybrid parade: just nibbling around
> theedges
>
> Our 1983 VW Rabbit "Sparmeister" diesel with a simple 3-speed plus  
> overdrive
> standard transmission spent practically its entire 14 years and  
> 130,000
> miles puffing around the hills of Ithaca at 48 mpg actual city and  
> 54 mpg
> highway.  But it was simple, noisy, had a  1.8 liter engine, anemic
> acceleration hard suspension and lacked air conditioning.
>
>   My bike burns about 60 calories per mile.  Moreover, I can bike  
> from my
> home on Cliff Street in the morning and meet that same Prius that  
> past my
> house as I was leaving downtown at the corner of Green and Cayuga.
>
>   But I live in the city where I work and deal with the issues that  
> arise
> because I live in a compact neighborhood in close proximity to  
> people who do
> not necessarily share my values or tastes and can be noisy and  
> obnoxious on
> occasion.  I deal with it, primarily because I feel that if the vast
> majority of the world's population can live in harmony in close  
> quarters
> with each other then we Americans should be able to as well.
>
>   Am I the only one who sees the contradiction in people living 5,  
> 10, 15
> miles out in the middle of nowhere and commuting daily to work in  
> Ithaca,
> each needlessly spewing 1,000-1,500 lbs or more of greenhouse  
> gasses into
> the atmospher every year driving to and fro, and still thinking of
> themselves as being "green?"
>
>   Am I the only one wondering why the Ithaca urban area sprawls out  
> over 11
> square miles when cities in the rest of the world with similar size
> populations take up only 2-3 square miles?
>
>   The Prius may be getting a few people almost back to where I was  
> in 1984,
> but it's still an example of how we as a society are simply  
> nibbling around
> the edges of the problem. We are still refusng to confront the fact  
> that we
> (a.k.a. the person in the bathroom mirror) have to acknowledge the  
> high
> environmental costs of our personal lifestyle choices if we are to  
> have any
> chance of reversing the destruction of our environment.
>
>   George Frantz
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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Marlo Capoccia
Garden Gate
www.gardengatedelivery.com