[SustainableTompkins] Hybrid parade: mmm, i don't think so

Thu Mar 13 07:25:47 PST 2008

Well, if education is going to happen or at least start with grassroots
efforts than why are Americans still using more energy per capita than in
the 1970s? I wasn't around that decade, but people have long known about the
need for conservation yet in the past 40 years it doesn't seem to have made
a significant enough difference. Maybe some people have made a few small
steps for conservation, but in all honesty it is going to take conserving
99% of your energy in order to make our current population sustainable
(which is why the population needs to decrease also).

Andy Goodell
1894 Charlotte Creek Road
Oneonta, NY 13820
(603) 831-0356
http://geekguyandy.com

-----Original Message-----
From: sustainabletompkins-bounces at lists.mutualaid.org
[mailto:sustainabletompkins-bounces at lists.mutualaid.org] On Behalf Of marlo
capoccia
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 10:20 AM
To: Sustainable Tompkins County listserv
Subject: [SustainableTompkins] Hybrid parade: mmm, i don't think so

i don't think i agree.  people don't change so much because they are forced
to.  think of how many people resist imposed religion.  i think it's a
matter of education.  not that regs won't help in certain areas, especially
with corporations (who have no religion...).  at some point things have to
fall to shit enough that people get scared.  then they get religion!  or, in
this case, motivated enough to change.  i do think that education could
happen  
by grassroots efforts but don't see enough people on board yet.   
probably won't be enough people doing grassroots education before some sort
of crisis.

george frantz, did i see you talk at a CCE conference at cornell in
september?  you and a few other men came and talked about land use regs for
farmers?  anyway, i disagree with you as well.  while people ARE expected to
do the best they can with what they've got, it's impractical and unfair to
expect everyone to live the same way and at the same level of conservation.
why is this unfair?  because society is not built for conservation.  we're
all trying to burrow our way through the muck into a golden area called
"conservation."  these tunnels are not built yet and as i said before, many
people don't even know the golden area exists.  so when people fail to reach
high standards it is not always for lack of trying but for doing the best
they can without good resources.  i don't mean this an an excuse for bad
behavior, just that good behavior is often very difficult or impossible.

-marlo
On Mar 13, 2008, at 9:13 AM, Andy Bailey Goodell wrote:

> I agree, but as long is there is gasoline to be used for 
> transportation people will be burning it. Similarly with conservation: 
> the general population will not take serious measures to conserve 
> resources until their disposable income has reached almost nothing 
> (i.e. if they want to buy a new TV they will need to conserve their 
> energy use to save up that money). The math shows that to be 
> sustainable at this population, Americans need to use about 1-2% of 
> the energy they currently average. Is that something you are ready to 
> do? I'm down to about 10% of average, but that means I still have a 
> long way to go.
>
> To think that even owning a car is truly sustainable would be kidding 
> ourselves. But while I try quite hard to reduce my energy use and 
> impact in all ways, the system around me (in all forms of 
> infrastructure) is not, and that makes it very hard to live a 
> low-energy lifestyle. But as we have 'evolved' to want our own house 
> with a big yard, a few parking spots, and the ability to drive when we 
> want, it will certainly take much time and involve plenty of 
> resistance to get away from that model.
>
> The best we can really expect is nibbling around the edges until we 
> are forced by legislation, energy prices, or a drastic change in 
> society by choice.
>
> Andy Goodell
> 1894 Charlotte Creek Road
> Oneonta, NY 13820
> (603) 831-0356
> http://geekguyandy.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sustainabletompkins-bounces at lists.mutualaid.org
> [mailto:sustainabletompkins-bounces at lists.mutualaid.org] On Behalf Of 
> George Frantz
> Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 11:02 PM
> To: Sustainable Tompkins County listserv
> Subject: Re: [SustainableTompkins] Hybrid parade: just nibbling around 
> theedges
>
> Our 1983 VW Rabbit "Sparmeister" diesel with a simple 3-speed plus 
> overdrive standard transmission spent practically its entire 14 years 
> and 130,000 miles puffing around the hills of Ithaca at 48 mpg actual 
> city and
> 54 mpg
> highway.  But it was simple, noisy, had a  1.8 liter engine, anemic 
> acceleration hard suspension and lacked air conditioning.
>
>   My bike burns about 60 calories per mile.  Moreover, I can bike from 
> my home on Cliff Street in the morning and meet that same Prius that 
> past my house as I was leaving downtown at the corner of Green and 
> Cayuga.
>
>   But I live in the city where I work and deal with the issues that 
> arise because I live in a compact neighborhood in close proximity to 
> people who do not necessarily share my values or tastes and can be 
> noisy and obnoxious on occasion.  I deal with it, primarily because I 
> feel that if the vast majority of the world's population can live in 
> harmony in close quarters with each other then we Americans should be 
> able to as well.
>
>   Am I the only one who sees the contradiction in people living 5, 10, 
> 15 miles out in the middle of nowhere and commuting daily to work in 
> Ithaca, each needlessly spewing 1,000-1,500 lbs or more of greenhouse 
> gasses into the atmospher every year driving to and fro, and still 
> thinking of themselves as being "green?"
>
>   Am I the only one wondering why the Ithaca urban area sprawls out 
> over 11 square miles when cities in the rest of the world with similar 
> size populations take up only 2-3 square miles?
>
>   The Prius may be getting a few people almost back to where I was in 
> 1984, but it's still an example of how we as a society are simply 
> nibbling around the edges of the problem. We are still refusng to 
> confront the fact that we (a.k.a. the person in the bathroom mirror) 
> have to acknowledge the high environmental costs of our personal 
> lifestyle choices if we are to have any chance of reversing the 
> destruction of our environment.
>
>   George Frantz
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.   
> Try it
> now.
> _______________________________________________
> RSS, archives, subscription & listserv information for:
> SustainableTompkins at lists.mutualaid.org
> http://lists.mutualaid.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainabletompkins
> free hosting by http://www.mutualaid.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> RSS, archives, subscription & listserv information for:
> SustainableTompkins at lists.mutualaid.org
> http://lists.mutualaid.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainabletompkins
> free hosting by http://www.mutualaid.org

Marlo Capoccia
Garden Gate
www.gardengatedelivery.com

_______________________________________________
RSS, archives, subscription & listserv information for:
SustainableTompkins at lists.mutualaid.org
http://lists.mutualaid.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainabletompkins
free hosting by http://www.mutualaid.org